Quote from Luke.S :

you can't really complain yet since lfs isn't even beta and you haven't paid any money to own an s2 licence.

You got everything wrong!!! I'm not complaining!!! I mentioned the problem hoping that could help developers to fix it, if they aren't already aware of it!

Quote from Sponge :

Restricted (more realistic) setups were also coming if i remember correctly..

That's a good thing. Unrealistic behavior could also be the result of a setup that is not achievable in real racing, not a physics model issue. I can't say how much setting ranges are off limits (if I can set for example a suspension to be way more soft or stiff than real suspensions) but I'm sure about one thing. Road cars shouldn't be so adjustable. Even when you do an upgrade to a car, you fit the new part and in majority of the cases that's it. The story finishes there. You have an improved car but not an adjustable one.

LFS is a racing simulator. I don't want it in order to test hypothetical setups that doesn't exist. I want it to put me in the shoes of a race driver.

Quote from Hallen :

Yes, LFS has some physics flaws, as do all games. One of LFS' problems relates to how the contact patch is seemingly just a single point and when the tire contacts a sharply angled surface, the model doesn't handle it well when there should be two simultaneous contact points and a huge amount of energy is slammed into the tire. This can cause unusual behaviour.

But, in your case, what you have is a situation where it sounds like you are hitting a very sharp and tall curb with such speed and force that the car rolls over. That may or may not be a physics problem. It might simply be your driving or it might simply be exactly what would happen in the real world.

Look at it this way, if you hit that curb with that kind of force with a real car, you are going to break the suspension so your race is over. My suggestion is, don't do that. It isn't faster, that curb is much too sharp to even clip, and you know it makes you wreck.

Do some searching and you will find all the different physics bugs discussed in great detail. You aren't bringing up anything new here.

I did a search for rollover + FBM (I also tried other keywords) but I don't think that it brought up any related threads. If I missed a similar topic I'm sorry.

Have a look at the replays yourself. Maybe the curb is sharp and tall but after all it isn't so sharp and tall and in addition the speed is relatively slow.

If you search youtube you can find many videos with open wheelers driving over curbs and bumps with speeds higher than 200 kph. Monte Carlo road circuit tarmac has many bumps but the tires are continuously in contact with the road.

If the same curb was in another turn where speeds were higher (e.g. 150 km/h or more) what should happen? Should the car fly out of the track? My opinion is that the car overreacts... And is not only that. Is it possible to drive a Formula BMW on two wheels? In LFS that happened for one or two seconds to me. I counter steered to bring the car back on the road.

Last edited by Costas Athan, Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:17.

Quote from carey :

I’ve rolled the FBM at the first turn around Blackwood without touching anything. Also the exit of the chicane seems to be another place where you can roll depending on how you take it. The most annoying thing’s that during two wheel moments counter steering seems to do very little, which leads to the conclusion, that something’s wrong with the physics (although this is an unpopular view).

Of course there is room for physics improvement. If physics were perfect developers wouldn't introduce a new tire model (I mention it because it's really new) and wouldn't make any updates to LFS physics model. I think the view is unpopular among people who love the game and thought that I started this thread in order to blame LFS for physics inaccuracy. But I really don't think that the game is bad. The fact is that it is really great and I just tried to mention a weak point....

I have a replay with a seriously damaged rear suspension. In order to go straight I had to steer the wheel many degrees left. And I was able to do 1:22. (And you have to notice that after the suspension got damaged I didn't push the car. I could do even better times.) I don't think there is a chance to drive a car with such a damaged suspension so fast... Maybe I could start a new topic for it because it's unrelated with this one. I also can mention that in some high speed crashes it happens to get little damage, less than lower speed ones. (But that happens rarely and I don't remember under what circumstances happened).

In conclusion I have the feeling that in most cases physics are excellent. There are some certain points though which have obviously room for improvement.

Quote from Dajmin :

I can't watch the replay here, but I think what sakkinaama meant (sorry I've no idea where the umlauts are) was that the kerb itself is shaped strangely. It has a peak, which means it's possible the front wing clipped that peak hard enough to bounce the car.

Bounce? Of course I would expect a bounce. But the car ended with the wheels facing the sky.

I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion after you watch the 3 replays.

Quote from Forbin :

I think the problem you are having is you don't know what all the settings do and you're too lazy to figure them out. In addition, you find yourself well off the pace, so you throw up your hands and whine about how all the setup options are unrealistic. If you can't make adjustments, no one else should be able to either!

You misunderstood... I didn't say that all settings are unrealistic. And I don't claim I'm an expert. Unrealistic setups have been mentioned in other threads too. As I already mentioned (read above) I count as unrealistic e.g. that the XFG gearbox can be adjusted. When you buy a road car you can't adjust the gearbox. It is as it is...

As of what settings do, I have already read the LFS manual:

• Basic Setup Guide
  
• Advanced Setup Guide
  

and I watch motorsports for years so I have at least a basic understanding of racing setups and techniques. Again, I don't claim I'm an expert.

In addition I don't blame unrealistic settings for my times. (In reality I'm not unhappy with my times. I have done 1:14:99 with FBM@BL1 and I think that with more practice I can improve. The assumption that I find myself off pace is wrong.) And even if the fact is that setups are totally unrealistic there are unrealistic for everyone, not only for me. So if you think my times are well off pace it certainly hasn't anything to do with realistic or unrealistic setups....

Quote from säkkinaama :

Have you even noticed the shape of the kurb in the last corner, its not like usual kurbs its very pointy and high and youre not supposed to drive over it. Its not the game's fault its your fault that youre rolling over

Yes, I've seen it. But I didn't drive over it. Watch the replay in ultra slow motion (press F2 sometimes) and use different camera angles. I drove on it, not over it. The wheels don't touch the grass. Press F9 to confirm it. There isn't any dirt on any of the wheels. If I had stepped on the grass and then again on the kerb I would expect an unpleasant reaction, but again not the certain one.

Maybe using that kerb isn't a good tactic. But the speed in the apex isn't above 100 km/h. The car shouldn't flip so easily! I insist on that.

I'm watching Formula 1 many years. I have watched tones of Open Wheelers videos on Youtube, but I honestly don't remember anything like this. If someone has a proof for that kind of behavior in real world open wheelers' races I would like to see it.

Quote from libben :

We can only hope for more realistic setups and new physics that is real good!

Physics and car settings should be the first priority and they should constantly be improved in each new release. I'm a new LFS driver so I can't comment on how physics have changed during LFS history. But I'm sure developers trying their best. I'm just mentioning some points that I think make the game more unrealistic and "ruin" driving experience and simulation filling.

Of course the fact that LFS has one or two weak points doesn't mean that is not an excellent simulation game! It is and I strongly believe it will get better!

Quote from Bluebird B B :

Irl singe seaters are bouncing over the curbs, inside wheels driving full over inside. In lfs this would mean total loss of grip.

Single seaters do not fly often, but i remember a picture of Jos Verstappen in a a1gp car going over a hill resulting in all four wheels in the air Doing just a regular lap.

http://www.verstappen.nl/column/12.html


However you are really driving up a very steep curb, which does have an effect you might rol over espacially if you don' t counter steer like you did.

The second mpr, the two wheel driving on lap 5 is indeed a bug, i agree.

Here is another one just some minutes ago. Two rollovers in two days...

Lap 5 (which is the final lap), first corner.

Look the replay from a camera placed outside the car in ultra slow motion. The right wheels don't have any contact with the grass. I didn't drive the car out of the limits of the kerb.

The setup is "RACE_blackwood" which is included in the game, with a modified final drive ratio.

I don't think that this is a typical behavior of a race one seater car.

It flips instantly without any prior warning. In the first corner I use the inside kerb from time to time. But most of the times it doesn't even unstabilize the car. If that kerb is capable of rolling over the FBM it should every time make the pass over it extremely difficult, but that's not the way it happens...

The photos you are referring to show the cars just a few centimeters above the tarmac. In my replays we are talking about a behavior which is too far away from these examples! And there are many examples with F1 cars driving over kerbs. Some of them are steep too. I haven't ever seen a similar Formula 1 car reaction!

Some examples:

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NxzZ-WlYyE
   
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtoUZxspGEA (look at 0:53")
   

Last edited by Costas Athan, Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:43. Reason : Youtube links

Quote from The Very End :

Remember that most setups used in LFS is by far very, very inrealistic. The way some people use the pressure in the tires, aswell as the spring settings, will make it a fairly resonable thing to happend.

However, there are some downthings with the current tire physic engine, but that is getting an upgrade within the year.

Well that's the first thing that should change!!! LFS is a simulator and that means only things that are adjustable must be able to change in a setup and also the values that can take must be within a realistic range.

For example it is wrong to be able to adjust the suspension of a car when in real life the same suspension it's unadjustable and is case of an adjustable suspension is wrong to be able to make a setting that is not possible in real world.

Unrealistic setups are a very important issue for me when we are talking about simulation and a serious inconvenience.

Quote from Dajmin :

Careful with your quotes. We don't know if and when the new update is coming out at all

@Costas Athan:
The damage model is really basic, so things like roll cages aren't modelled at properly - everything just folds as if it's made of warm tin. I'm sure that'll all be looked at before LFS goes gold.

It would be a nice improvement.

Quote from bandaid :

While I agree with what you are saying, the object is to keep all four wheels on the road. This is not an issue when you are not driving like a banana. (I have not watched your replays.)

Well I don't think it is easy to make a one seater fly... And surely it shouldn't happen in my case. Watch the replay and make your judgment.

Yesterday while driving online, at the last corner before the start/finish straight I used the left kerb and the outcome was a spectacular rollover.

Watch the attached upside.mpr file at 1:30" and you'll find out what I'm talking about.

I drived on the kerb in a bad way. Probably my approach wasn't a good one. In real life that would have a very different result, slipping and loosing control maybe, but not a rollover. That kind of accident is extremely difficult to happen by a kerb because of the downforce a one seater produces.

If I'm not mistaken I have rolled over FBM in the first corner as well...

And I have something more weird to report. After the chicane it happened once to drive FBM on two wheels. Almost - if not absolutely - impossible for a car like FBM. The incident is saved in the second .mpr I have attached, "two wheels - lap 5 - chicane.mpr".

And something about damage model. After the roll over occurred, the roll bar that should protect drivers head appears to be completely damaged and the driver's head out of the cockpit! Graphics should be improved at that point. Structures that are intended to protect drivers should not get smashed easily.

Last edited by Costas Athan, Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:29.

Quote from Flame CZE :

If you have Adobe Photoshop, you can download hi-res skin kits with the black mask from here.

Thank you very much for the quick reply!

In order to use it in LFS the only think I have to do is to save it as .jpg, right?

Where can I find default skins with black background, like the one bellow?

http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=89946&d=1249676325

Skin originally posted here.

Quote from GenesisX :

I think this is a wonderful idea. But this may change the views of many hardcore racing sim enthusiasts who might think LFS has become some sort of drifting touge thing.

However, I'd like something like this. Sounds wonderful. This with the addition of some best in class physics - engine, would make my day, and ofc keep me from going to school. I'd stick with my PC 24/7.

Well, if someone wants to drift he can do it everywhere. He can use the current LFS tracks to do it. I can't see the difference of rally stages or hill climbs.

But in a real rally or hill climb race winner is decided by time; it has nothing to do with drifting.

Quote from brt900 :

i wish there was hill climb it would make a few aspects happy drifters would have a touge track to drift on slightly grippers could hill climb and hill climbers well they hill climb

Hill climbs and rallying are two major parts of motor racing! It's a pity they aren't also part of LFS...

Ford Escort WRC
Ford Escort RS Cosworth

When I play a simulation title I want the simulation to be as precise as it takes in order to meet reality, so I want a standard pit box assigned to a driver.

The way pits work now ruin the simulation atmosphere!

I know it's about 3.5 years since the thread started, and of course developers have their own roadmap for their project, but I couldn't resist the temptation to add my opinion.

If hill climbs and/or rally races were added the LFS simulator would gain much quality!!! First of all I think road courses have thousand times more fun than race tracks and they are the joy of race drivers. Plus that they are often more challenging than a circuit.

And of course as long as there isn't any other new rally simulators out there, it would be good for the popularity of LFS too... (Maybe rFactor offers some solution to sim racers hill climb and rallying needs but it has so many car and track mods that it is almost impossible to find a server with the combination you want in order to race online).Just have a look to the videos bellow and have fun!

1. BMW Norma M20 3L course de côte
   
2. mercedes 190 hillclimb
   
3. Judd V8 10,000 RPM !!! E36 BMW Hillclimb car
   
4. on board f3000 berguerand la broque
   
5. Formula 3000 Street Run
   

If you watch them you can easily understand what we are losing without these type of courses included in a simulation game.

Last edited by Costas Athan, Fri, 21 Aug 2009 20:01.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Brake help is made completely obsolete by ABS (it's like an extremely primitive version of ABS), but I'm not sure if it's automatically disabled if the car has ABS activated.

You can easily test this by enabling both ABS and brake help and making a setup with strong brakes. Then brake hard at 100% and steer into one direction. If the red brake indicator bar in the lower right corner stays at 100%, brake help is disabled or at least has no influence / doesn't engage.

I used a drag setup for the XRG which causes the ABS to enable each time I apply the brakes.

Well the brake indicator stays at 100%, so I guess even brake help is enabled it does not take any effect when ABS is also turned on!

When ABS is enabled is it better to enable the "Brake help" or not?

How do ABS interact with "Brake help"?

Quote from Kendercik :

As it's said before and totally like your kind of an argumentation: XFS isn't based on a today's car.

You have a point here, because it is necessary to look many years back in order to find a car without ABS. And I'm not talking about expensive sports cars.

Of course today almost every car has much more than ABS.

Quote from AndroidXP :

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1009690#post1009690

Many thanks for the immediate answer!

On which car is the XFG based on?

Why XFG doesn't have ABS? It is a road car and ABS is part of the electronic safety equipment of the vast majority of today's cars.

Quote from animal1313 :

Yes, I'm speaking of a change to LFS itself.

Your analogy won't work since there is not a Yellow on the field. Or, if there is, then there is the bit about speed differential being an exception to the rule. There's a Yellow out and I'm ahead of you. Since you disagreed with my suggestion here I want to screw up your race so I slam on my breaks. You are faced with either hitting me or passing me.

If you pass me, then there would be a significant speed differential between our cars.

Perhaps, though, there also needs to be a certain "grace period" here. If you pass under Yellow you have X number of seconds to get back into your original race position. (Ain't that how it works in real racing?)

This thread is a bit old, but these two weeks I got involved with LFS I have exactly the same thoughts. Yellow flags should be treated as in real world, as in every league of auto racing.

If LFS applied yellow flag rules it would significantly improve the simulation feeling and quality during a race!